Many of the older Christian Churches in Europe are, by design, wonderful musical venues. They are built with high roofs, and arches, and complex surfaces designed not only for their visual beauty, but also to increase something called acoustic reverberation, which can basically be described as the length of time a sound hangs in the air before fading away into nothing. If built with thought and care, the largest basilicas and cathedrals – good examples are Ely Cathedral near Cambridge and the Basilica of St Andrew of the Valley in Rome – turn the human voice into something vaguely angelic and otherworldly.
Music and religion – along with art and religion – have always been deeply intertwined. Christianity in particular has always made a conscientious effort to link music and art with the existence of the Christian God, exploiting architecture and sound and painting to create a sense of awe and wonderment appropriate for a “house of God”. This is, after all, the whole point of a church: It is supposed to make you feel closer to the divine.
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For the 500 year or so history of the House of Hapsburg as Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire, and later the Empire of Austria-Hungary, Imperial funerals had a salient and relevant tradition:
As the cortège approached the church, the master of ceremonies of the imperial court would approach the locked doors of the church, knock with his staff of office, and call out, ‘Open the doors to receive the body of his imperial and royal highness, Franz Josef von Habsburg,’ or whoever it was. And he would list the titles of the dead monarch, who, since he had been an emperor, had many: he was not only Emperor of Austria but also King of Hungary, King of Bohemia, Prince of This, and Archduke of That, Count of Somewhere Else and Knight Commander of many Orders. It made an impressive list of titles and honours. But a voice would answer from within the church, ‘We do not know him’. And the doors would remain shut.
The master of ceremonies would knock again, ‘Open the doors to receive the body of the late Franz Josef von Habsburg’. This time there was no list of titles. Once again the voice would answer, ‘We do not know him’. And the doors would remain shut.
A third time the master of ceremonies would knock on the door, this time gently with his knuckles, ‘Open the door to Franz Josef, a poor sinner who asks for Christian burial’. And a voice from within would answer, ‘We know him!’ and the doors would open and the body be received into the church as the Requiem Mass began.
The point, lest it need spelling out, is that in death – at least in the eyes of the church – all are equal. When the dead Emperor came to be buried, the focus was not on his achievements as a man of status and ability, but on his status as a humble sinner, no better in death than anybody else.
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That some Roman Catholics may have been offended by the funeral, on Friday, of Shane McGowan is a fact that seems to stir one of three reactions amongst a solid mass of Irish people. First, there are those who are genuinely bewildered: It was a lovely, heartwarming ceremony, they say. We had tears in our eyes. This is how funerals should make you feel.
Second, there is the cohort that is downright angry, who feel that any objection to the particular form of a funeral by people of religious faith is, de facto, an attack on the person whose funeral it was. How dare you tell other people how to grieve, they say, and how dare you tarnish such a lovely unifying occasion with your weird zealotry, or whatever it is.
Third, there is the cohort who know full well why some Catholics are offended, and delight in it. Generally, these people will publicly profess to be in categories one or two but take absolute joy in the sense of desecration they experience from hearing the words arse and faggot sung immediately after holy communion.
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One of the most common talking points offered in defence of the funeral concert (it cannot, really, be called a funeral “mass” in the traditional sense) for Shane McGowan is that the deceased, aside from being a wonderful and gifted musician, was also a practicing Catholic. He deserved, they say, a send-off in a church.
This rather misses the point: Practicing Catholics, surely, practice their faith because they believe in it. And what they deserve is not a send-off in a church, but an actual catholic funeral. To honour the practice of somebody’s faith in life, you honour the rituals of that faith in their death. Simply moving an irreligious and secular musical tribute session inside a church does not make that event a Catholic funeral.
In a Catholic funeral, the focus of proceedings is not, in fact, the deceased: It is on the solemn promise made to all Catholics of life beyond the mortal, and salvation in the next world. It is not to “celebrate the life” of the deceased, but to pray, communally, for their soul.
To those who are not Catholic – and even many who are – this might seem like a somewhat esoteric point: To them, it might seem as if the central point of a funeral is to comfort the mourners and fondly remember the life of the dead person. But in fact, the point of a Catholic funeral mass is to talk to God, not to entertain and enthrall the audience in the pews or watching from home.
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All of the tributes to the late Shane McGowan were, of course, well-earned by him in life. That he was an extraordinary human worthy of mourning and celebration is not disputed in this column.
For the Roman Catholic Church, however, to have permitted a funeral mass to be transformed into a secular music concert, however, strikes this writer as both a mistake by the Church and something about which many Catholics have genuine cause to be legitimately upset.
The point of a church is to make people feel closer to God, not closer to a deceased, and mortal, human being. That is why the music usually played in churches is religious in nature, and not something, in the advent season, that contains the lyrics “happy Christmas your arse”.
The point of a funeral is to pray for the repose of a soul, not to create or reinforce a sense of earthly immortality for the deceased.
Finally, the point of the Church as an institution is to defend and uphold the practice of the Roman Catholic religion. Setting a precedent like this, in such a high profile way, immediately undercuts and undermines every Priest in the country (and presumably many further afield) who wish to educate people about the true purpose of a funeral mass and keep funerals focused on what the Catholic faith teaches.
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This being Ireland, the murmurs of dissent about the funeral that took place on Friday are real, and quite widespread, but almost entirely silent. There’s a sense in some that to air their discomfort with the form of the funeral would be conflated – wrongly – as some kind of disrespect to the deceased or to his family. In addition, there’s that great Irish fear of being seen as being “no craic” or a killjoy for any objection to things like dancing and singing. But as my grandmother said, and yours probably said to you: Sometimes there’s a time, and a place. A lot of people still think that, and they’re not wrong to do so.
So this is a conversation, like so many others in Ireland, that takes place in quiet whispers away from the public view. It is healthier, I think, to have it in public.
The most serious question that arises is for the Irish Bishops: If you, as the leaders of the Irish Catholic Church, cannot defend or uphold the sanctity and dignity of your own religion and its practices, why should anybody else believe in them? And if a funeral mass is just a do-it-yourself liturgy that can be embellished with singing and dancing and celebrity spotting, then what significance does it have, by itself, at all?
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Great article John. Very well argued and presented. The sacred should not be defiled by the profane. The priests and bishop involved in this funeral should have clearly laid out the rubrics of a catholic requiem mass and not allowed it to have been conducted in such a bawdy and irreverent manner.
Yes – I think John covers you in his article. Enjoy festering in your hatred !
Heres a tip, if you want to show how thrilled you are – spamming a comment board on an article you hate, written by people you hate, is not the way to achieve that.
On the other hand, if you want to appear agitated and angry……keep going…????
For someone who claims to hate this site he spends an inordinate of time on here. He reads all the articles and responds to a great many of the posts. I guess he is a closet Gript groupie.
It would take a low IQ to match your intellect.
@JackShaz One fine day you’ll understand and I hope it’s not too late for you.
Just as it would stick in yours if a minutes silence in memory of the deceased was announced and some people ignored it and started singing “Let’s celebrate, this party’s over, I’m going home”.
Shut up Jew.
Agree with your thoughts actually. I watched this on x and thought initially that it was jolly, like a funeral after party back at the house, but then I had misgivings. Especially as I thought about how he was a celebrity and that this was his service – a celebrity service. Not very catholic. And a bit problematic. Seems to have been scripted for social media. And you are right that this undermines important elements of faith.
It is only of comfort to us, the believers, because it is true. And if it true, as we believe, then it makes demands on us. These often include surrendering comfort, unsurprisingly. For those, who don’t believe, as you seem not to – no explanation of our view will ever suffice. So be it.
In fairness, by the same token what is it about the advocates of the WOKE religion (the new “purists”) that requires it to be mandated to everyone else? Seems to me the pot is calling the kettle black.
In fairness, it is reductive and an ad hominem to say you are just a troll as it is obvious you are intelligent and a good debater notwithstanding any flaws you may have (as we all have) and your contributions stimulates engagement with this website to its owners benefit. It is respectfully submitted your suggestion that relevancy only extends to the context of this “blog” (or rather this comment thread) is a red herring – since the issues raised in said context with its inherent potential consequences are reasonably and by necessary implication required for to be argued on an inductive (from specific to general) basis – by virtue that the sole putative germane context you assert i.e. “everyone who goes to a church must do it yours and McGurirks (sic) way” (actually the church’s way, despite the poor priest concerned clearly having felt pressured to accede to such antics ala “happy Christmas your arse” et cetera) is unacceptably reductive were it to be so circumscribed and prevail. This would then conveniently obviate a necessity for you to convincingly rebut the slippery slope argument (give ’em an inch and they will take a mile) whereby eventually a tolerance to Pussy Riot type antics in the church would be expected by the mentally disturbed woke brigade were they to be indulged. It is important to note the real and present danger of such stark eventualities manifesting and having manifested thus far to the benefit perceived by the the EXTREMIST LGBTQP movement in the west. It incessantly and arrogantly encroaches eastwards upon Russia for to be the root cause of President Putin’s impending success with his “nip it in the bud” special operation. it’s the gayz wot’ caused the war in Ukraine.
Intelligent? It is obvious he is sitting on his brains.
Do you actually make points as opposed to just talking tripe?
1. with respect, my post was “self indulgent”? That is a vague observation baldly asserted/ unsubstantiated – exactly like when the catch- all reductive epithet “homophobic” (correct definition – irrational fear and hatred of homosexuals) – is bizarrely, absurdly and maliciously hurled at someone for having legitimately complained about gay perverts in broad daylight on a public beach where children were present or for having complained about gay perverts who lurk in public toilets with children needing to use such facilities both occasioning legitimate child safety safety issues.
2. i’m not looking to control anyone just resisting the nauseously relentless propaganda by the EXTREMIST LGBTP movement churned out in a forlorn attempt to erase deep seated, indelible shame and bitterness when confronted with stark truths.
When this happens cognitive dissonance kicks in and the usual playbook tactics such as ad hominems, deflections, ignoring, refusals to address rational grave concerns and disapproval (as opposed irrational hatred and fears) are predictably deployed.
3. What is irrational and fearful about being deeply disapproving of and gravely concerned about legitimate child and health (STD’s) safety issues caused by such aspects of the gay lifestyle that are generally celebrated by the adherents of and apologists for same? The late gay pervert George Michael (R.I.P.) is a hero to the EXTREMIST LGBTP movement.
4 Grandstanding pearl clutching is exactly what is exhibited by the EXTREMIST LGBTP movement to bully anyone who states non-gratuitously when being true in substance and fact that buggery is a perversion of the biological function of the sexual organs and that homosexuals are vectors for disease.
5. Pussy Riot (the Russian “artistic” performance group – do a web search about them if you are unfamiliar) type antics are threatening, abusive, insulting and obscene if performed in a church. So too are the words “happy Christmas my arse” or “Faggot” when uttered in a CHURCH (emphasis added) whether embedded in a song or not and whether with intent (which is established by a subjective test taking into account the whole of the circumstances) to cause a breach of the peace or due to recklessness (which is established by an objective test taking into account whether uttering such words amount to a substantial and unjustified risk that a breach of the peace would be occasioned) thereby occasioning a breach of the peace. Whether any breach of the peace was actually occasioned is irrelevant for the purpose of establishing as aforesaid section 6 and 7 offences pursuant the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994. So if the rule of law in any non-woke tyranny jurisdiction (which Ireland presently is not and if it is not which is the case, then there is no rule of law and Ireland is a failed State as such) were to be evenly applied then upon any member of the public having made a complaint to An Garda Siochana about such words uttered in this church (a public place) it necessarily follows that all the participants who uttered the aforesaid words in the church at Mr MacGowan’s (R.I.P.) funeral service would have been charged or summonsed for to be prosecuted pursuant either or both the aforesaid criminal offences similarly to how Mr. John McGee was charged and prosecuted for having displayed a sign with the words “LGBT tyranny grooming of children” at the Portlaoise pervert pride parade.
6. The “sad reality” is that your words “abuse of BOYS” (emphasis added) is a freudian slip acknowledgement by you that the child sex abuse scandals of the church were overwhelmingly due to it having been infested with homosexuals in its ranks as opposed to the church being blameable for said scandals per se.
7. There are ever more of voters amongst the silent majority who are becoming ever more aware of the stark realities of which are susceptible of proof of truth.
8. Minister for Justice Ms. Helen McEntee TD (FG) and Deputy Mary Lou McDonald TD/ Party Leader (SF) who each recently uttered the unparliamentary words “scumbags” and “arse” (perhaps freudian slips too?) respectively in the Dail chambers should both be taken in hand by the Nuns for to have their mouths washed out with soap and given a spanking! Haha!
“Enforcing very closely the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit and purpose.” ?
The letter of the law being adhered to is congruent with and necessary for to realise the constitutional and human right to the principle of legal certainty.
Otherwise the abyss of relativism, anarchy and nihilism would prevail and no-one would step outside the door for fear of falling afoul of vague laws such as the risible “hate speech” law – which as currently envisaged – provided the rule of law prevails should never survive constitutional and/ or European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) scrutiny.
“Spirit of the law”? Advocating for a spiritual dimension to law are you Jacko? Maybe you are a spiritual person who holds a glimmer of hope that a supreme being exists for to save you!
Halleluyah, Hallylooya, hallalooo-oo-oo-oo -ooya! (ala Leanardo Cone/ Jeff Buckley et cetera.)
I don’t ignore purpose. There is the very illuminating purposive approach. For example in interpreting any Irish legal statutory act you look for to glean its overarching purpose to the foot of the Statute where it is usually stated but sometimes it is stated at its head.
For example check out the Criminal Justice (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 sec. 8.(1) and the purpose stated at the foot of same at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie
Yes. If his friends want to host a party with song, music, dancing, etc. just have a hoolie in a hotel. Their perception of him is first and foremost a party reveller, dying as he lived. A one dimensional character. However if they request a funeral, even a humanist one, it suggests that there is more to him than wine and song. That he was a poet and philosopher. That there was a hidden dimension to him which his lifestyle concealed. That behind the musical façade there was an intellectual titan who wrestled with the pain, suffering, misfortune loss and death that this world throws into every life. If so perhaps it might be better to tone down the music and listen instead to readings which uphold the dignity, purpose and destiny of every human life. Since this was a so called catholic funeral, the message that he was a child of God redeemed by Christ, and the service a plea that he be received into heaven should have prevailed,
The point is we don’t choose. That is the way it is required to be done. If you go to a library you expect a quiet atmosphere. Not because you dictate it but because of normative agreement.
Astonishing and Orwellian/ dystopian how those concerned parents who picketed libraries nationwide over those gay/ pedo/ perv groomer books aimed at kids were maliciously smeared with the usual playbook tactics of being labeled “far right” and “conspiracy theorists”. NEVER BACK DOWN good parents!
Even you probably know the state holds the parents accountable for their children’s actions. If those parents allowed their children to watch illegal internet content you can be sure the state would remove those children from their parent’s custody/
Yes but if it is a catholic funeral they choose it should be conducted within the catholic rite which this ceremony was not. If they don’t like the catholic rite they are free to choose some other service. I have attended humanist funerals at which this type of revelry was not permitted.
As a catholic it does. If my church conducts funerals contrary to it’s norms I want to know why. I don’t want every Tom and Harry dictating that the rules of the church be changed to fit his hare brained notion.
Some funerals in recent years have taken on secular tones. This is where the priest is not a leader, but a follower of what those who do not know any better, want. They are not educated in what a funeral should be, many are not practising Catholics and haven’t a clue. They are sure the funeral is a celebration of the life of the deceased and they act accordingly. It is the bishops’ fault too. Another thing is the readings. I have seen people doing readings who have become non-believers, consider the religion worthless, never stood in a church since their confirmation, aged 12, but still feel themselves worthy to stand on the altar and read from the Bible to believers on the day. All a sham. The priests should control all that happens inside the church and who says what. Maybe they can sing their secular songs outside the church gate when the coffin is in the hearse, or at the graveside. Very good article.
Back in the 1970s a priest that would say “a fast Sunday mass” was the most well attended. This is not to say that he rushed through it but he did not tediously prolong it by thanking everyone from the altar servers to the congregation or giving an obsequious and overlong eulogy if it happened to be a funeral mass. Now it is a never ending presentation of symbols from blowlamps and football jerseys to bottles of Cognac and six packs. Secular songs like I’m jealous of the angels around the throne tonight and of course downright crass songs like Fairy-tale of New York seem to be the norm. If the priests want to attract people back to church perhaps they should reintroduce more elements of the sacred rather than the profane.
Piss off. Who invited your unsolicited views. Post them on the public forum if you must where I can ignore them.
Try easing off on the laughing gas and the problem should remedy itself.
Glad you are so easily amused. You would probably outlast a hyena having a giggling fit.
Yes, a priest who didn’t delay us was appreciated. Later that night when men would be in our house, they’d say, ‘that’s a great man, he let us away quick’. The priest himself kept it short when needed, too. I remember when I was a child in the early ’60s, a priest starting off his sermon once by saying, ‘I won’t keep ye long, it’s a hard morning’. The church wasn’t heated because there was no electricity in the area. We had great fires in our kitchens but we walked into cold rooms, a cold school, cold everywhere. We never thought about cold, it never bothered us, it made us hardy, I suppose.
We can only aspire to be a supreme fool like you. Luckily we have your constant presence on here to lecture and guide us on that path.
Amen to that.
I don’t care how Shane or anyone else conduct’s his funeral outside the church. A catholic priest should conduct it according to the rules of the catholic church and not allow nominal Catholics to alter it according to their whims.
It is almost equal to yours. Any you are right that freedom of assembly and freedom of speech are being contained by a government so au fait with EU values.
The majority of people in Ireland still identify as catholic and want catholic schools and sacraments such as baptism, Holy Communion, confirmation, weddings and funerals. I am not denying them their entitlement to that as you incorrectly claim. But there are rules and conventions which the priests are required to ensure take place. Even in the secular houses of the Oireachtas there is a Ceann Comhairle to ensure the rules of parliament are observed. He would be failing in his duties if he allowed each Senator or TD to behave in an ad hoc manner.
The point is though that the rules have not been formally changed. If the church announces a new rite people are then free to choose a different path. The society of Saint Pius X left the church when the Latin Mass was set aside in favour of the Novus Ordo or vernacular mass as we are familiar with today. While it is possible under the current rules to allow symbols of the deceased’s life to be presented prior to the service, there are stipulations as to the type of which these should consist. Similarly any hymns or songs should be those approved for Church worship. In this case these rules were not observed. I admired Shane. I think he was a great musician and I have no axe to grind with him or his mourners. But like many other people on here I am frustrated because the priests did not advise the funeral party of the authorized form of a Catholic Requiem mass.
It is not a joyous celebration that someone has died. Perhaps it is for you and you are beside yourself with mirth when someone passes away. In the Catholic church the requiem mass is to ask God to admit the deceased person to heaven, not to have a party to celebrate his life. If you want to do that have a knees up at a hotel.
That is more than just an important point. As a Muslim reading this I ask when will true faith in Ireland be renewed?
Next she will be prevented from praying that babies in Gaza will not be killed in the war there.
You have already indicated that the number of abortions in Ireland do not bother you and seem unperturbed that people who silently pray or offer alternatives to women approaching such facilities can be detained by the police. Since this is the case is the next logical step to arrest someone trying to prevent the deaths of Children in the Gaza strip?
So in other words you only favour free speech when it suits you? These people are not engaged in coercion, they are offering these women an alternative to killing their unborn children. There are several catholic societies which rely on the voluntary contributions of people who want to offer these girls accommodation, material help and a different option to that of feeling that killing their child was all that their county could offer them.
The praying and preaching outside abortion clinics is clearly jihad against the abortionists which I agree with. Religion is about spiritual battle. However, on the question of the tone and nature of a subsidiarity funeral the question is one of waning Church authority. Capitalism is responsible.
Give it over. You are the one that will cry crocodile tears when a mother loses her child in a mass shooting and call for strict gun control rules. You couldn’t even begin to debate your own stupidity or hypocrisy.
I think your piece speaks to a deeper loss of a (any) value system as an underlying bedrock on which society is built. For all the unquestionable crimes and failings of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Faith provided such a value system for this country for centuries.
Now where do “we” get our values? Reality TV? Instagram? Hollywood?
The social structure used to begin with the family, then the community, then the nation. It developed and grew from the ground up.
Now it is imposed : the State, the Media and those forces who direct and set those agencies on very specific paths (EU,UN,WEF).
The foundation of any society should be a value system and a philosophy …. not an ideology.
Education (beginning in the home) should similarly be focussed on VALUES and PHILOSOPHY.
Your VALUES are your absolutes that define you.
Your PHILOSOPHY is how you see the world and the way you live your life in it.
Your IDEOLOGY (if you have one) is how you want the world to be… that’s a very different thing
IDEOLOGY, specifically the so called WOKE ideology of the Left is what has been given PRIMACY as the force shaping society and the world. It can only bear poisonous fruit.
Well written. I think it points to a bigger issue in that for many self professed Catholics, adherence to political correctness is of greater importance than stating objective truths.
With respect Robert, TRUTH is a stand-alone concept having inherent absoluteness without any necessity for it to be qualified as being objective/ subjective and/ or mine/ yours/ their/ our truth et cetera – similarly to how there are just facts not also “alternative facts”.
To succumb otherwise only leads to the abyss of relativism.
It often dismays me when ostensibly articulate judges in the courts incorrectly pronounce lazily or otherwise “I find the facts proven” when they instead as the case may be ought correctly to state “I find the allegations/ charges proven (beyond reasonable doubt/ on balance of probability as the case may be).
Obviously predetermining charges for to be facts as opposed allegations requiring for to be proved is inimical to the presumption of innocence.
All of the foregoing exemplify the perfidious creeping phenomenon known as linguistic prestidigitation.
Sorry I eat dictionaries for breakfast. Haha!
But I get the gist of the very good point you make.
I think this is one if the reasons people are choosing Traditional Latin Mass, where nobody is allowed into the sanctuary. It was a lovely tribute from showbiz friends but shouldn’t have been part of a funeral Mass. Many of the celebrities aren’t catholics and live lives far from Christian ideals
Well done John for raising what many of us were thinking. As someone who has been going to the TLM over the last number of years, I believe I have now a greater understanding of what the Mass is which is a re-enactment of the passion of Our Lord. Every action of the priest is a commemoration of this event and the priest joins with congregation in presenting the sacrifice to God. Communion is received on the tongue while kneeling to show greatest respect and adoration for the Blessed Eucharist. There is no clapping at a TL Mass as it is deemed inappropriate. I don’t suppose people clapped and sang and danced at the foot of the cross, except possibly his executioners. All this could have been done at a hotel reception after the funeral.
That is the source of the discomfort. The priests themselves are dismantling it by allowing people unfamiliar with the correct ritual to determine the nature of the ceremony. The funeral mass is to celebrate God’s salvation rather than the accomplishments of the deceased. We come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Yes but it is YOU that seems to think that YOU know best how to direct the church even though you think it should be dismantled.
That is the point. Why should the church heed your advice about how it should be run when by your own admission you don’t give a damn about it. As for what Jesus would say about it to quote the scriptures, My Father’s house is a house of prayer and you have turned it into a market place. Jesus drove those that would defile what is sacred out with a whip.
That is the point. You don’t give a damn and you think you should direct how it should be run. If you were captain of the Titanic you would want your half assed ideas to be followed by everyone even though you didn’t care whether it sank or not.
My question is why the people do not read the word of God and follow it’s teachings, or are they all just like Jesus said, you worship me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me.
If people want a Catholic funeral within the precincts of a church it should follow the traditions of such a service. If they want an a la carte ceremony they are free to choose any other venue and whatever liturgy they want.
What’s with your obsession about control Jacko? Perhaps you and your therapist might explore if you have sub-conscious gimp issues. Haha! I hope you ain’t so bitter as you seem on here when you’re with pals in your boozer! Hope your okay dude/ dudette as the case may be et cetera! Skin up and chill! Tell your anxiety to shove its attack where the sun don’t shine Simple as! Merry CHRISTmas! Jesus still loves you!
I am a Christian which is why I want my church to observe it’s laws. They are not laws of my making since I did not draw them up, the Church did.
You don’t have a clue about church doctrine (not dogma as you erroneously state) do you. To you it’s all about joining together for a sing song a dance and a eulogy. If so fine. Hold it down in the local pub or hotel. I won’t say you are an awful person but you are awfully ignorant about church law and don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
That is the point. A funeral like that should not be held in the church. The priests should have insisted that the funeral be held within the norms of the Canon. As a matter of fact there is something I can do about it and I am glad you reminded me to do do. I can draw the attention of the Papal Nuncio to the fact that funerals in Ireland are not being conducted as prescribed by the magisterium. .
So who gets to dictate it then. People like you that don’t have a clue what the catholic church actually is? I doubt that you are a Christian either since you don’t have the most basic idea what that involves.
This is bury thy neighbour not holding a party in his memory.
As if you would have the slightest idea of what a Christian is.
Do you Jack Shaz intend to have a Catholic funeral? What is your religion and creed?
Yet you are very exercised about other people’s funerals but don’t seem at all bothered about your own.
Neither do you dictate it and you are not even a Christian.
Sadly we are living in sacrilegious days – the clergy included. As an American Catholic I say it behooves Ireland to recover her faith practices and traditions in light of the many Muslims there now who will militantly practice their faith.
So you think Muslims should have no say on this. It just shows what a narrow minded bigot you are. Who are you to deny them their say? And what gives you the right to dictate that this should be a secular discussion?
You evidently do not follow your own dictates since you are preaching here incessantly. Practise as you do rather than as You say might carry more weight. As for Muslims such a funeral service would not be allowed in their mosques. They respect God and they take their faith seriously and show due reverence. Catholics are entitled to expect that their pastors observe similar respect. As I said earlier I have no qualms if people throw a huge party and commemorate the deceased any way they like. I have no wish to stipulate how people outside the church conduct their funeral memorials.
All the dictates that you didn’t follow for starters such as preaching here incessantly while admonishing others to remain silent. And what you think isn’t here or there either since you haven’t the faintest idea about church ritual.. And neither are you entitled to decide what is or is not appropriate for a catholic funeral because you are not a theologian.
Exactly. You don’t know anything about church ritual so you are not concerned whether it is followed. And you are right that nobody cares what you may think or not think. The focus of McGuirk’s article is that catholic priests should follow the rules for a catholic funeral rather than heeding the direction of complete numpties like you.
So you know nothing about church ritual but claim to know what Church observance entails? You know nothing about any of this do you?
Out of 28, the troll has submitted a total of 11 comments here. It is being well paid.
“We love the craic”
“No one does it like the Irish”
Our version of the little Englander.
Good article John – says what many think, but are afraid to say.
Says the biggest motor mouth on this site.
I would say there is no possibility of stopping you speaking but it seems a bit hypocritical that you want people such as Conor Queely to remain silent.
You sound like Dick Emery. The characters he played were forever saying “Oh you are awful, but I like you”.
Why should he stay silent. He is showing up hypocrites such as you?
As if you were qualified to know. Christ said that only those who keep his commandments will enter the kingdom of heaven. How will you keep laws that you are wilfully unaware of? Any why should the church follow your advice if you are utterly irreligious. Would you accept the legal advice of a counsel that was utterly ignorant of the law?
Could everyone not respond to Jack Shaz, he’s a lefty looney to be pitied not debated.
Hi Jack
Yours Frank
Good idea. Just ignore him. Don’t give him any prominence.
Paranoia. A mental disorder.
From what I saw of it, it seemed to have followed Catholic norms, with gifts, a reading from a Hollywood star and some rather raucous songs, not that different from itinerant weddings. I was in Camden when Malcolm McClaren (Sex Pistols) passed. It was memorable, blasting the neighbourhood out of it and just the way things are. The very odd thing to me about McGowan’s funeral was Gerry Adams giving the oration. If anybody hijacked the funeral, I would be looking that way for the usual suspects.
Funerals are also a time of passing for those who remain and, if those who were close to McGowan felt that was the way to go, and the priest and local bishop were cool with it, big deal. When people look back on funerals, the always remember the fly in the ointment. I would be less concerned with the show and more with the showboaters
Was it actually a funeral mass? I can’t get an answer to this anywhere! Or was it a funeral ‘service’, be grateful for clarification.
The church and priests have signalled to their congregation that attending a nightclub is the same as attending a mass. They have been doing this for years and they wonder at the drop off in attendance.
It certainly was’nt a Mass with a (very good) secular song inapropriately performed in a church by woke weasel “rebel rockers”/ “civil disobedience” individuals who were not in the least rebellious or civil disobedient by their silence and lack of protest at the Covid scam/ apartheid vaccine passport business. Neither was it a “service” but rather a gross DISSERVICE and gross DISRESPECT to all genuine and practising Catholics.
Lordy lord Jacko you are a master of falsely attributing words and emotions to your opponents on here. If you are real – as opposed an avatar invented by this website’s admin. so to stimulate reader engagement by echoing and/ or adapting what suspiciously seems like AI generated soundbites to tailor your replies to perhaps even other avatars on here – then it is clear it is YOU (caps used for emphasis not to signal presence of any anger on my part, I’m a happy camper with gratitude, health is my real wealth blah blah) who seems to be consumed with anger and bitterness when bereft of any sense of humour by how it is so palpable and seems to be escalating. Perhaps you need to take a break before you go nuts. I just noticed you are ubiquitous in numerous comment threads to articles all over this website. In fairness as such and if you are real you or maybe you lot (what a troll team!) have some energy and/ or must lead a secluded existence/ s. Regarding your numbered responses to my numbered points above, the Magdalene laundries are one of the rare exceptions where girls were abused. And it is amusing that by you refusing to engage with certain of my numbered points made above you only confirm the veracity of the content I stated in certain of my numbered points! Well it was fun debating with you but life is short so I will bid you adios. Don’t be afraid to as Google says “reach out” to appropriate folks if you feel you may need help. Merry Christmas et cetera.
People who argue know how to use reason which you clearly haven’t a clue.
Indeed. If this is the type of weekly observance that practising Catholics are obliged to attend, is it any reason so many of them are choosing to travel some distance to assist at a Tridentine mass or even worse simply stop attending altogether and leave it to the boisterous revellers.
And if you could keep your opinions to yourself (at least on Gript) the world would be an even happier place.
So you want one set of rules for you, i.e. free speech but another set of rules for others, i.e. that they remain silent. No doubting who is the hypocrite here.
You hate religion because it is a constant reminder to concerned individuals of their deservedly experienced feelings of shame and guilt vis a vis abortion and buggery et cetera.
You have nothing to do with religion and yet you want to dictate to those who do.
Couldn’t have put it better.
Yeah and you think you narrow minded bigoted views should be the prevailing ones. Do not maybe reflect on that.
Yes you want all of us to be silent so that you can air your opinions unopposed. You sound like a proper little dictator. Also consider the millions of lives lost in atheistic countries such as USSR, China, Cambodia.
Only you.
I wonder what the reaction would be if someone wanted to play “Burn down the disco, hang the blessed DJ” by the Smiths?
At my mums funeral my family asked the priest if we could play some songs by my mums favourite singers,Elvis and Daniel O’Donnell and he refused saying they don’t allow pop music in gods house.The other song we requested was Ave Maria,which he also turned down,saying it’s not a proper hymn.What a cunt I thought to myself.
He should have allowed Ave Maria. That is an approved song within the Catholic Rite.
Catholic here. I just stumbled across your article from Canon212.com. Well written piece. Well done.
Excellent article John, thank you for taking the time to write this.