Over the weekend, Michael O’Toole of the Irish Daily Star – a reporter with some of the best garda sources in the country – raised an important point about the policing of the rioting in Dublin that took place last Thursday: Some Gardai, he noted, simply did not know how much force they could use in order to police the capital, and many members of the force feel as if GSOC – the Garda Siochána Ombudsman Commission – would be looking over their shoulder if they had used the same amount of force that, say, Caio Benicio and Warren Donohoe did in subduing the attacker last Thursday morning:
I’ve had more than a few guards tell me this. Some people will undoubtedly disagree, but that’s grand, I think it’s important you know what they’re thinking.
They genuinely applauded the Brazilian hero Caio Benicio for smacking the knife attacker hard with his helmet, but they…
— Michael O’Toole (@mickthehack) November 25, 2023
This was followed up by a statement from the Association of Garda Sergeants in Ireland, essentially confirming that members of the force are unsure about their authority to use force:
2/2 we provided constructive feedback on a number of areas including Operational Tactics & Welfare..we also discussed concerns raised by our members that there is a fear amongst Gardai to use proportional force because of excessive Oversight…this was echoed by other Associations
— AGSI (@AGSI_Ireland) November 25, 2023
Yesterday, then, came the following intervention from the Minister for Justice. See if you can spot the strange thing about it:
Members of An Garda Síochána need to have “absolute clarity” on what levels of force they can use when faced with rioting of the sort that took place in Dublin on Thursday night so they are not “looking over their shoulders,” the Minister for Justice has said.
Helen McEntee said on Tuesday morning gardaí are authorised to use force where it is appropriate but she would be asking the Policing Authority to provide greater clarity on the levels permitted in given situations as to provide reassurance to members of the force.
“I don’t want members of An Garda Síochána looking over their shoulders responding to these incidents where they feel that force is necessary,” said the Minister. “I want them to have the confidence to respond in the way that they deem appropriate.
“So I am asking the authority to provide that clarity for members of An Garda Síochána so they do not feel that they are operating with their hands behind their backs.
Once again, the Minister for Justice – like many of her Government colleagues – is outsourcing and offloading an important matter of public interest to an unelected body rather than simply making the decision herself.
This is an important point: You, as a voter, did not elect the Policing Authority, and it does not answer to you. You did elect – either by voting for her, or one of her party colleagues – the Minister for Justice. Her job in our system of Government is to make decisions on behalf of the people, and to implement them. If those decisions are to your disliking, you then have the right to remove her from office.
There can, and should, be no more fundamental question of political accountability in a democracy than the amount of force the state is permitted to deploy against an individual citizen, and in what circumstances that force may be deployed. It is a question for which the Government, and the Minister, should be taking full personal responsibility. But that is not happening here.
What is happening is the standard formulation for all Irish politicians everywhere: She is calling on someone else to do her job for her.
This is not confined to the Minister for Justice: it generally happens at all levels of Irish politics. My friend, Jason O’Mahony, late of the Irish Independent, notes that it is entirely possible for an Irish politician to have a thirty year career in which they spend their time simply “calling” on others to do things. This starts in the local councils, where councillors have little power and spend most of their time calling on the county manager to do something or other. It happens as an elected backbench TD, where calling for things is the bread and butter of the job. And it transfers into Ministerial office, by which time “calling” for things is so deeply engrained in the political mind that the very concept of actually doing something yourself is anathema.
The result is a political system with very little accountability, because Ministers who call on unelected bodies to do things or, as in this case, “ask them” to do things are not actually making decisions at all. Ultimately, now, in Ireland, the use of Garda force is not a matter for you the voter, or Helen the Minister at all. She can ask nicely on your behalf. That’s about it.
It’s also nonsense: If the Minister does not approve of a decision made by the policing authority, she has the statutory power to simply disband that authority and make the decision herself.
She’d never do it. That’s why she’s a bad Minister.
The problem is, she’s not alone.
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Leo said yesterday when talking about Immigration that it is ‘not straightforward’ which seemed to be a euphemism for ‘we haven’t a clue what to do about it .’
Now Helen asking for advise from the Policing Authority which should be providing oversight to decisions and policies and not making or setting them.
They really are starting to look like rabbits caught in headlights. They opened the Pandoras Box and now look like they are struggling to cope with the consequences.
How can you lead effectively when you are constantly fighting the fires of your own mismanagement?
Does anybody actually know, right now, where they intend to take the country from here assuming that they are not too busy trying to keep the ship from sinking without trace to steer it anywhere?
Varadkar’s claim for immigration not being straightforward, is a codeword for saying he will continue to keep it going non-stop, unregulated across our open borders forever. Varadkar is unstoppable now with his mania for mass immigration, dumping busloads of them on unwilling towns and villages, against protests.
might have something to do with him thinking Ireland is too white lol,where else would we source less white people from if not through immigration ,they are potential members of parliment he is looking for,we surely can not breed fast enough to do this for him…
They know what they want to do alright. Varadkar has been completely candid. To paraphrase him. The people have let the government down. The government are moving heaven and earth to import a new people to dilute the one who was there when they came. To facilitate this they are introducing the most Draconian hate speech laws in the world. A delegation from North Korea are considered sending a fact finding mission to study our stunning success in censorship. New CCTV laws will be rushed in to monitor and control our citizens. If that does not work and the citizens remain uppity then we have got some slightly used water cannon which we will use to spray the revolting citizenry with slurry. The Guards are getting special training in batten and shield usage to beat the crap out of then cAnd all of this repressive apparatus will be handed over to Sinn Fein in 15 months time. You can bet that army council will be delighted with the coercive regimen that this lot are putting in place for them
You’d think politicians would relish the opportunity to make decisions while in government.
Could the problem be that Helen McIntee doesn’t have much knowledge on this particular issue and therefore asks the Garda Authority to make the decision?
Deliberate or incompetent?
Either way this is not good for Ireland.
There is just so much bad news coming in to them from all around the country on a daily basis they must feel like Hitler in the Bunker in the last days of the war with the regular updates on Allied progress being received. And you either at that point realise that you can no longer maintain control of the events that you set in motion or , like Hitler , you take shelter in delusion and fantasy.
I think they are sheltering in delusion & fantasy
I would gladly supply them with some petrol and matches. I will even dig a hole for them in the grounds of government buildings.
simple,use as much force as you do on the general public when they are not involved in rioting and attacking police …we all know the force some of them use on people…there was a time in my life when I was in an abusive relationship and my neighbor called the police when my partner was trashing the house (not me and this is important) and two 6ft male officers turned up after he left and proceeded to assault me to the point they left bruises all over my 5ft 3″ body I couldn’t stand or walk upright for a week and they almost snapped my arm,one even just smacked me in the back of my head while the other knelt on my back…and no I was not breaking the law or resisting arrest,I didn’t end up arrested at the end of this,I just refused them entry to my house,after when I said I was going to get my phone to record I got body slammed onto my sofa and he started screaming stop kicking me because he was alone with me(I can’t wait for body cams) to continue assaulting me and when others finally did show up they blamed my now ex for putting all those marks on my boddy…
oh my children were young at the time but not in the house,I told them my brother had taken them to my mothers and offered her number and address to check there…instead they decided to tackle me into my house to gain entry then proceeded to search my house,when I asked what they were searching for in my wardrobe they said people hide children in weird places,like my kids wouldn’t have been traumatised hearing yet another person or people beat me up?they never searched the attic mind…anyway just use that force…
also I did complain to the GSOC because why wouldn’t I?that is on their record now but they lied and said it was my ex and neither was alone with me …anyway yeah…that force
That’s monstrous, I was going to make a comment on the gardaí beating the sit-down student protestors unconscious a few years back, there are some real thugs littered through the force, and some admirable garda too.
What you described is an instance of the former, horrible f’s.
There should be the right to use commensurate force when a suspect is being violent towards other people or likely to do so. In all other cases only what is required to restrain the person.
I don’t actually agree with Peadair Tóibín on mandatory sentences for violence towards gardaí because of cases like that you’ve described.
Every decent person stands by anyone in these sort of situations.
some of them are very sweet and nice and of course they should be able to use whatever force to protect themselves and others short of killing…I had many a garda call to my door during that time of my life just to check on me…I wouldn’t paint them all with the same brush and yes I really hate those two specifically ,some people shouldn’t be in that line of work and even if they are yes in a riot protect yourself as much as you do when there is not threat to you…
also there was one time 3 police beat the crap out of my ex,they pepper sparayed him and beat him with those batons ,I heard him screaming from inside my house so I ran out and threw myself over him,they threatened to arrest me to lol ,I do not know what it is like to be pepper sprayed but I know how it feels when you have it second hand, it’s like when you scrape your skin off pavement and it burns,showers actually make it burn more…
You’ve shared some shocking experiences. Hope everything is good with you
wait until I share my experience with the HSE who is responsible for the death of one of my children,no doubt that they will be in the news again and yes I am all good,I am one of those people life can’t keep down, like a virus lol I just keep coming back…
I agree. I would hate to see, though, legislation being enacfed that would give the gardaí general powers of licensed, pre-emptory violence, even in a situation like last thursday. It has to be highly specific to where merited, and only candidates with a head cool enough – even in those sort of situations – should be in the force.
Early 2000s (?), at the ‘Reclaim the Streets’ thing, there was some mild yobbery at what was a mainly lefty event of kids (not violence, traffic stopped and some tools jumped on car bonnets). Gardaí went on a total, general rampage. It was like a microcosm of the violence on thursday (sans burning & looting), but from the gardaí. Five took turns kicking a little teenage girl, already on the ground. A few guards went off down to the Quays, totally blood-to-the-head, and hit passers by (one adult man, out shopping with his kids was batoned – discussed on Joe Duffy at the time. The attack on the girl was filmed and shown on the news, she looked unconscious [this was a separate case to the similar incident with the student protest at the Dept. Finance a few years later] – at the ensuing court case, gardaí involved found innocent)
Chances are if you go to a solicitor in the same town, he may have knowledge of their thuggery from other people who came to him with complaints. What you are telling about them is frightening.
I did go to a solicitor about my child but not about the police,I was happy enough my complaint would stay permanently on their record…on a side not I loved my solicitor , he laughed at me(because I was poor lol I couldn’t afforrd the entire case in one go) in our first meeting,I came out of his office saying this is the person I want to take this case he also laughed at how I would pay if the court found in favour of the HSE(they did not)I loved him a lot…
You are correct. Some, by no means all are just thugs in the uniform of the state.
That a horrific experience Maris. I hope to god that you are in a better place now and are not too traumatized it.
I had terrible ptsd and ocd but I got over it,I still have a great sense of humor but dang can I hold onto a grudge like my life depends on it now lol and when I actually do get pissed off I am such a piece of trash…still the point stands about how much force to use and that just happened to be the best example of how I can relate to this,I am sure we all use personal experiences to form opinions on things…
When I think of the John Carthy case, it frightens me what the guards can do with force against an individual. They refused to get him a solicitor when he asked, who could have intervened. Instead, they shot him dead later. Look at the protest at the return of the Dáil in September. A small section of the group went to the Dáil after the speeches and the protest in Molesworth st were over. How could the intern of Michael Healy Rae have her purse stolen inside the Dáil door, with loads of guards there? In my view the reason is not just incompetence but stupidity. The death of John Carthy was tragic and leaves a dark stain on the history of Ireland’s police force.
That shooting of John Cathy caused the scales to fall from my eyes also. A troubled young man who was only a danger to himself was shot by a bunch of godshites in uniform who thought they were playing in a Hollywood movie. A case where the intervention of a priest or solicitor could have had a satisfactory outcome. Instead they shot him deaf.
Agree totally, James. Hard to believe that he even asked for a solicitor, but they killed the man they came out to help. A pity they were ever called.
‘We reject Government funding’ Could you please clarify what funding the Government has offered you to reject ?
I suspect Varadkar of writing hate-speech towards Israel on his mobile. His hate-like ‘lost and found’ formulated comments recently are grounds enough for this suspicion, according to the letter of this law! All his EU colleagues would see his rhetoric as clearly anti-Israel and therefore anti-semtic. I insist the Guards seize his mobile and force him to hand over the password! Or does it not count for him? Wait until the mobiles of the Irish opposition parties are seized by an already out-of-control government, like Biden has the FBI doing in the US. Will Harris be able to say no to Varadkar, if asked?