Credit: Gript

Legal group say ‘Yes’ vote would have “long term consequences”

Senator Michael McDowell has launched ‘Lawyers for No’ in opposition to the upcoming referendums on article 41.2 of the Constitution and the proposed carers’ amendment.

The group was set up in order to “spread awareness” of the legal consequences of a ‘Yes’ vote passing, with members of the panel at today’s meeting saying there is “vast confusion” among the public about what exactly they are being asked to vote on. 

Senator McDowell heavily criticised the government’s behaviour saying that the referendum bills had been pushed through “in a matter of hours”, and without “pre-legislative scrutiny”. He said Minister Roderic O’Gorman’s department’s decision to not publish the minutes of 16 meetings held between interdepartmental groups was “absolutely extraordinary”.

McDowell said the government was in effect saying that it is “in the public interest to keep the public in the dark” on the consequences of the constitutional amendments it is keeping until after votes have been cast. 

The group’s executive summary says that the “proposal to extend the constitutional family to “other durable relationships” is “unnecessary and introduces huge uncertainty into our fundamental law.”

They say the “rejection by the Government” of wording that would permit the Oireachtas to define the meaning of “other durable relationships” will create “major uncertainties for everyone in short term relationships.”

The proposed constitutional amendments would also cause the “proper protection” provision afforded  by Article 41.3 to be “avoided by spouses leaving the home to form new constitutional unmarried families based on durable relationships. 

TD Michael McNamara said that the erasure of marriage as the cornerstone of society would lead to a “ridiculous” situation where litigants would be submitting  “Christmas cards” as evidence before the courts to establish “durable relationships”.

Cormac O Dúlacháin BL said that the erasure of the legal significance of marriage before the law would render it as no more valuable to society than relationships between “boyfriends and girlfriends”. 

The group says that this lack of legal certainty of the definition of terms would open the door to “concurrent and successive families with multiple partners”, and that this would have “long term consequences for family law, family property rights, succession law, pension law, tax, law, welfare law, as well as migration and residence law.”

Laoise de Brún BL of The Countess said that the ‘Yes’ campaign were relying on people’s ignorance of the legal consequences of ‘Yes’ votes by focusing only on terms that sound “good and progressive” without addressing the “real-world consequences” of removing “the only acknowledgment of the work that women do in the home” and the “value that this contributes to society”. 

Journalist and Barrister, Brenda Power, said the timing of the referendum was “suspect” given that it is scheduled to take place only a matter of weeks before the Supreme Court hears the case of a mother who is the full time carer of her 18-year-old son who has “profound disabilities”.

Power said that the article which the government seeks to delete from the constitution was the basis of this woman’s ability to seek legal redress before the courts after her carers allowance was redacted after her partner’s salary exceeded 45,000 euro per annum. 

Lawyers for No says there is “no truth whatsoever” in “repeated Government statements” that article 41.2 says that “women’s place is in the home” the article “give advantages and no disadvantages” to women. 

The group says that the “proposed amendments to the constitution and their likely effects” contain  “uncertainties and contradictory language” and that the  amendments are “utterly vacuous” in respect of Care.

They say they are “strongly of the view that there is no legal or constitutional argument for acceptance of these amendments” and that they “urge the citizens of Ireland” to vote no to both referendums. 

 

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Frank McGlynn
2 months ago

I am not legally qualified but it seems that there are a number of grounds for challenging this referendum e.g. the failure to disclose the minutes of meetings which dealt with the possible consequences of these changes ( conscious decision to deny vital information to the public), the use of taxpayers money via NGOs to promote a yes vote, contrary to the McKenna judgement, the threat to groups who do not campaign for a yes vote by Roderick O’Gorman, the lie that the current provision restricts women to work in the home and the dishonest claim that at present the Government is somehow restricted in providing adequately for carers.

James Gough
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank McGlynn

All true Frank but will the judiciary agree to stand for truth and against the liars forming the government. Who knows. My guess is that they will if asked opt for a quiet life and to hell with the country.

Cal
2 months ago
Reply to  James Gough

Paddy Last will do what their told. Government will sail through with the yes vote. Giving mistresses in ‘durable relationships’ the same rights as the wife. Ya couldn’t make this up. Life is short & thank God

Seamus Molloy
2 months ago

Something really smells off with this referendum and everything I hear about it makes that case stronger and stronger. They are deliberately muddying the waters and refusing to clarify basic questions on the basis we must vote yes to move Ireland forward. Forward to what?? Vote No No

James Mcguinness
2 months ago

When the people behind the change cant even tell you what the consequences are and cant even define what a durable relationship it, you know you are in trouble if this goes through. The proposal is so brain dead, you would literally have to be that way to vote for it. Aside from the obvious, you just have to look at the people who support it in the dail, the same people who stand over the ship wreck of ireland and claim they are doing a great job. Does not really inspire confidence in their decision making.

Cal
2 months ago

But Paddy Last will vote for it. Paddy Last has a solid track record in submission. Look at the convid vaccine uptake

James Mcguinness
2 months ago
Reply to  Cal

Then roll on the tyranny. I hope paddy grows a brain. Tough ask. The difference between a a conspiracy theory and truth is about 6 months these days.

Eamonn Dowling
2 months ago

The proposed amendment is so ill thought out and so ridiculously flawed that it should like something that someone came up with when they had a few too many in the Dail Bar one night .
It’s one of those ideas that one would assume everybody instinctively knows is bad and foolish and does not even necessitate discussion for everyone to know that. In the same way as everybody instinctively knows it is a bad idea to put your hand in a fire .
As an idea it belongs in a satirical sketch .

Anne Donnellan
2 months ago
Reply to  Eamonn Dowling

I suspect it is not ill thought out. Thank God for honest politicians and lawyers

John B
2 months ago

They should join the independent Ireland party and rename it the “the logical party”.

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago

Nominate one and get them to debate the current Attorney General who approved the wording of the two referenda on live television; preferably one who isn’t more associated with political ideology than legal competence.

Mark J. Savage
2 months ago

In my succinct opinion, the Attorney General Rossa Fanning SC has to be a DEGENERATE if he approved that wording for each proposed amendment.

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago
Reply to  Mark J. Savage

Oh of course you do!!! Obviously he would need to justify himself in a debate with a fellow legal professional.

Peter Kelliher
2 months ago

Why hasn’t our esteemed Attorney General joined the debate? Because he knows he would be evicerated.

David Sheridan
2 months ago

This government are deliberately trying to destroy Ireland. Sovereign nations do not fit in with the globalist’s plans. Particularly nations with a written constitution. NO NO and the IrishFreedom party would be a good start at resisting this agenda in my opinion.

Anne Donnellan
2 months ago
Reply to  David Sheridan

M Martin ” backward notion” of sovreignty

Paul Clinton
2 months ago

This referendum should be cancelled. It’s a complete farce and build on lies and misinformation

Paula
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul Clinton

Hear hear

Pat.Carr.
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul Clinton

Welcome to our future! Do you think that elections are going to be run fairly, in the media and otherwise, in the foreseeable future? Globalists simply don’t believe in free elections.
Klaus Schwab said that elections won’t be necessary in the future, as AI can predict who we would elect!! Do you think his golden-boy Leo, has a different opinion? If he has, then why is he a member of the WEF and why would he follow their play-book, like he is obviously doing?

Last edited 2 months ago by Pat.Carr.
Paula
2 months ago

Who wouldn’t listen to these intellectual gladiators.

Anne Donnellan
2 months ago

Bravo and thank you

Patrick Pidgeon
2 months ago

I never thought I’d see the day when the Green Party – and these amendments are been driven by them – would end up as as verging on the totalitarian in its behaviour. From the blatant threats against NGO’s to support the amendments, or else, to the disinformation spread by O’Gorman and Martin, and its refusal to release relevant information to the public. It seems the Blueshirts have now been supplanted by the Greenshirts!

Paula
2 months ago

And RTE letting it go, being the ngo that they are. The Irish times are the same

Anne Donnellan
2 months ago

Watermelon…green on the outside, red on tge inside

Sean B
2 months ago

This is just another of the blur of changes made by government to the constitution. Why are the government pushing for all these changes? It’s not as if the people have slowly come to the realisation that the Constitution is flawed and are looking for corrections. The Constitution belongs to the people and protects them and their rights against the potential tyranny of government. Is there no way we can stop the government from pushing these changes to the Constitution? What happened to the McKenna judgement? The judiciary are supposed to step in and stop the government when they become so obviously corrupted but they are silent.

Jon.Pat
2 months ago

Could they not have found a bigger bunch of old farts as that lot? This should be active, young people, who are trying to persuade the U-29s in our country! They won’t listen to that lot, no matter what the argument!

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago
Reply to  Jon.Pat

Apart from McDowell they’re all too easily dismissed as ‘god botherers’. They’d be as well off asking one of the lawyer members of Enoch Burke’s family to join.

Paula
2 months ago

Didn’t you read the article. 🐴

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago
Reply to  Paula

Sure. Well spell checked 😂.

Peter Forde
2 months ago

Hmm Michael McNamara a “god botherer”? Obviously you dont know much about him.

By the way, if the others being “god botherers” is sufficient for you to tritely dismiss their views, at least you must acknowledge the hard lesson they have learned from the 1983 Abortion referendum when what was considered
at the time to be watertight wording led eventually to vastly different legal outcomes, bestows them with enough expertise to know that inserting a vague undefined term into the constitution such as “other durable relationships” is an extremely reckless thing to do.

Last edited 2 months ago by Peter Forde
Peter Kelliher
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Forde

If Gript are against it then Neddy is for it. An establishment shill without a single independent thought.

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Kelliher

Sure that’s why I came here: I knew it was the place for consensus groupthink😂😂😂.

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Forde

Judging by the way they are conducting an attempt at a No campaign in these referenda it’s safe to say they are incapable of learning anything. The same points being made as were made in 2015 and 2018 and chances are the result will be the same. In the aftermath the diagnosis from the No side will be the usual: ‘The yes side played dirty pool but we got the moral victory 🙄 ‘ They are all mad according to Freud’s definition of that condition: Someone who does the same thing repeatedly and expects different results’

Peter Forde
2 months ago

There you go with the madness analogy. Btw that quote was by Einstein, not Freud afaik. Also Freud has his place but I’m more of a Yungian fan myself.

Yes there are people involved in the No campaign who should never be let near a microphone or would contribute more by keeping their mouths shut. The Catholic Church is one example.

Last night as I was driving home Ronan Mullen was on “The Late Debate on Radio 1 as the spokeman for the NO campaign. The first question in my mind was, ” Is this RTE in their MSM “groupthink” mode, choosing the “NO advocate” with the most negative profile to advocate for the NO side in order to torpedo their campaign? It’s a valid question imo. However I think it is more a case of the establishment and government funded NGO’s all lined up with the system and what’s not bought off are mainly a powerless and disparate lot standing up for the ordinary people.
The truth of the message is more important than the messenger.

Edward Fitzgerald
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Forde

Sorry I meant
Einstein. I quite like Jung also.

Anne Donnellan
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Forde

The admirable Deputy Mc Namara, barrister married to a barrister, eas outstanding during Con vid. I remember him saying he was not y church goer but he vigorozsly defended the right to worship

Jon.Pat
2 months ago
Reply to  Jon.Pat

Well I hope they just take the meaning of ‘old-farts’ as meant like I did, that they are not the most-active and youngest, to act as an inspiration for the young folk! I do appreciate that they are doing the right thing and they are all heroes in their own way! No personal offence meant to them!

Pat Coyne
2 months ago
Reply to  Jon.Pat

Young people do not vote without others compelling them. I have not noticed the same level of campaigning on these issues as in the last few referendums.

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