The government’s Safe Access Zones Bill, which would make it a criminal offence to pray or demonstrate outside GP centres, health facilities and hospitals providing abortion nationwide, has been met with scrutiny in the Seanad.
It came as Health Minister Stephen Donnelly told the House that with regards to the Bill, certain “freedoms are subject to exceptions,” as he acknowledged that the Bill would “create exemptions” to certain rights.
The Bill, which passed by a sweeping majority in the Dáil last month by 117 votes to 10, was introduced to the Seanad on Thursday by Health Minister Stephen Donnelly, where it was debated by Senators at second stage.
Concerns were heard that the legislation was underpinned by a “desire to crush dissent,” with Senator Rónán Mullen stating that the government has now “abandoned any desire to even talk about reducing the number of abortions.”
Senator Sharon Keogan was also critical of the legislation – telling the Health Minister that the Bill would not protect women, but rather, would deny them the opportunity to avail of assistance to “willingly receive help and counsel when it is most needed.”
The Independent Senator also expressed concern that the Bill sought to “ruthlessly punish” those whose conviction or faith prompted them to stand up “for the most vulnerable in our society” – sharing her view that the impact of the Bill on religious freedom was relevant.
Introducing the Bill on Thursday, Minister Donnelly said that the main purpose of the Bill was to address and mitigate, “insofar as possible, the potential for a person’s access to a termination of pregnancy to be impacted or influenced at the point of access.”
“It will also provide additional assurance to healthcare providers should their services be the target of specified conduct that could interfere with their service provision,” he said.
The Health Minister acknowledged that the Bill was dealing with “a complex area of law seeking to balance competing constitutional rights..” He further insisted that: “This Bill is not about criminalising lawful protest. It is not about shutting points of view.”
However, Senator Rónán Mullen accused Mr Donnelly of “weasel words” which he said were designed to “reassure people that there is something reasonable about all of this.”
“How can you criminalise that which is lawful?” he asked Mr Donnelly, as he told the Seanad that it was his view that the Bill was about the government “caving” into the demands of “special interest groups”:
The Governments unnecessary and unprincipled ‘safe access’ legislation came to the Seanad yesterday. Here is one reason why so many good people can become disillusioned with politics and politicians. This legislation is not about preventing people from being harassed, as the… pic.twitter.com/4lYyqqUh3E
— Senator Rónán Mullen (@RonanMullen) December 15, 2023
He said that Senators had been presented with “some kind of sanitisation” of the legislation as being “some kind of respectful balance, having regard to people’s right to access abortion which is now legal, tragically, and respect for people’s right of freedom of assembly as guaranteed under the Constitution.”
“I am reminded of the British Government’s approach in asserting that Rwanda is safe because it says so, and that it will legislate to say so,” he added.
“These kind of guarantees that this is legal are summed up in the language used by the Minister today that it is not about criminalising lawful protest. Indeed, it is not, because the Minister proposes to make certain protests unlawful. How can you criminalise that which is lawful?”
He said that the reality in Ireland was that we do not have abortion clinics per se, but that abortion is available and happens in GP surgeries and hospitals. Those who access those places, he said, “enjoy complete anonymity.”
He went on to state that those who witnessed against abortion were “very few,” stating:
“The record of those who would witness, for whatever reason, to the injustice of abortion outside facilities where it takes place is that they are actually very few and mostly very respectful, which is what we would all want.”
Continuing, he told the Seanad: “What this Bill is actually about is finishing the work of the legislation for abortion five years ago in 2018. It is to crush dissent and make sure that the voice says that the unborn child is a human being that ought to be respected, cherished and welcomed into the world, the same as a child in Gaza or any other vulnerable child in any situation, is not to be heard.
“What we have had is the disgraceful situation of Government officials and representatives caving in to special interest groups that want to silence dissent.
He went on to reference comments from the Garda Commissioner Drew Harris, who said back in September 2019 that existing laws were sufficient to deal with protests outside places where abortions were provided.
“I cannot believe that what is provided for in this Bill is constitutional, when one considers that the deputy Garda commissioner appeared only a year ago before the health committee and called for signage to be erected outside facilities where abortions were being committed, on the mistaken assumption that hospitals were the main areas where services are provided at this juncture,” Mr Mullen said.
“Indeed, we heard the Garda Commissioner in the past saying that such legislation was not needed. The claims that people attending hospitals were being impeded by a lobby group were effectively undermined by the hospitals themselves. For example, Cork University Hospital released a statement to the effect that it had not received any complaints from patients regarding the protests.”
He likened the situation to “an example of what Hannah Arendt called the banality of evil, where something really wrong and unjust is being done by some very respectable people, with great sanitised language and with pretensions of respect for democracy, freedom of expression and the free exchange of ideas.”
“It is nothing of the sort.,” he told colleagues. “It is a desire to crush dissent, even from among the small number of people who might want to witness outside a medical facility that people could be attending for any purpose, or where there is no possibility of a person being personally intimidated or accosted, but where there might be the possibility of somebody seeing a smile, getting an offer of help or initiating a conversation that might lead them to choose not to have an abortion, with a life saved as a result.
‘THE UNBORN CHILD IS A NOTHING IN THE EYES OF THESE PEOPLE’
“That is not to be tolerated because in the new Ireland, it is not a good news story if somebody decides not to have an abortion. The Government has abandoned any desire to even talk about reducing the number of abortions.”
Mr Mullen went on to reference “safe, legal and rare” terminology being used in America – but said such language was “not allowed” in Ireland.
“I remember when Bill and Hillary Clinton were advancing abortion in America. At that time, they said they wanted it to be safe, legal and rare. In today’s Ireland, you are not allowed to use that language. You are not allowed to say it should be rare.”
He continued: “Why should it be rare? It is a person’s choice. The unborn child is a nothing in the eyes of these people. That is a tragedy for our country.”
The Senator further said that any legislator who “supports that sutation, and any legislation that supports the ruthless crushing of even respectful witnessing to the dignity and the humanity of the unborn,” is doing their country a “major disservice.”
“If the Minister wonders why politics and politicians are brought into such disrepute, it is because legislation like this says to a significant proportion of people in our country that politicians really do not care about what is right and wrong.
“They just go with whatever the special interest groups that are most influential at a given time want, and they give it to them on a plate. It is shameful legislation and it will be opposed on Committee Stage.”
Senator Sharon Keogan also highlighted concerns around the Bill, telling the Seanad that she had “serious concerns.”
She said that she believed its inevitable outcome would be “to deny women the option of availing of lifesaving supports when they need them most.”
“This criminalisation is far too sweeping,” she continued, as she referred to cases of similar legislation being used against people in the UK.
“Particularly when considering the sheer number of safe access zones that this law would create, covering every GP clinic, hospital and family planning centre, irrespective of whether they provide abortions. In England and other jurisdictions where similar laws exist, we have seen cases of people who have been arrested for silently praying in the vicinity of abortion clinics.”
Isabel Vaughan-Spruce, from Birmingham, made headlines last year when she was asked by a West Midlands Police officer, “Are you praying for the lives of unborn children?” within a zone where similar censorship zones legislation is in force.
She had been arrested last December for silently praying within the vicinity of a closed abortion facility in Birmingham, after she told an officer that she “might be” “praying “silently” in her head. The pro-life activist, who was arrested multiple times, later told Gript that: “Police told me my prayer was an offence — I was arrested for my silent thoughts.”
Senator Keogan went on to ask the Seanad, “What guarantee is there that people would not be arrested here for praying quietly?”
“If a small group or an individual were to stand outside Beaumont Hospital and pray a rosary intended for the sick or the healthcare workers, they would be well within their rights, but if they offered intentions for the unborn child, they would suddenly fall foul of this law and be treated as having committed a crime,” she said.
“While the impact of the Bill on religious freedom is relevant, I am also concerned that it would forbid the possibility of any positive efforts by private citizens and good Samaritans to offer women in unplanned pregnancies meaningful supports at a time they need it most.”
“If we want to be a compassionate society that respects women, we need to ensure that no woman ever feels she has no choice but to have an abortion. That is too often the case at present,” she added.
Senator Keogan further claimed that State-run MyOptions, the HSE’s abortion referral service and hotline, “acts as little more than an abortion referral service.”
She also told the House that it was “well established,” both on the record of the House and outside it, that there was “no evidence” that the legislation in question was needed.
“Senior gardaí have repeatedly stated that existing public order legislation is sufficient to defend people from harassment and intimidation and none of the major hospitals in this country have reported anything approaching the scenarios pro-abortion campaigners claim are a daily occurrence.”
Referencing those who voted no in 2018’s abortion referendum, she said:
“While such campaigners may smugly remind pro-life persons that the referendum is over, it remains a fact that one third of this country never wanted abortion introduced in this country and their voices are valid and must be counted and allowed to be heard.”
The Senator claimed that the Bill sought to ban “not harassment but prayer,” as she referred to Ireland’s tradition of silent and peaceful prayer vigils, which she said often take place in the vicinity of hospitals “as a way to pray for those suffering inside. “
“It is yet another Government Bill that seeks to punish opposition to the prevailing narrative, to copperfasten the supremacy of the majority over the minority opinion,” she said. “It is a terrible proposal and I will not support this Bill.”
A number of Senators took aim at Senator Mullen and Senator Keogan for their comments, while Health Minister Stephen Donnelly concluded the debate by stating that the Bill would create “exemptions” to certain rights.
‘THESE FREEDOMS ARE SUBJECT TO EXEMPTIONS’
“Bunreacht na hÉireann provides that the State guarantees liberty for the exercise, subject to public order and morality, of the right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions, as well as the right of citizens to assemble peaceably,” he told the House.
“Similar rights to freedom of peaceful assembly, to freedom of association, freedom of expression and freedom of thought, conscience and religion are protected in the European Convention on Human Rights, the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a large copy of which hangs in my office.”
“These freedoms are subject to exceptions,” he said, adding, “But, while that is so, the United Nations has specified that states should establish a positive presumption in favour of peaceful assembly.”
He said that this meant there was “a very delicate balance to be struck” in devising the legislation.
“We are all elected representatives and, regardless of our political views or our views on any given policy, I know that every Member of this House and of Dáil Éireann believes passionately and forcefully in the right to protest, the right to assembly and all of the associated rights I have just listed. I say that as someone who has had protests outside his own house,” he continued.
“We welcome and encourage protest and I am sure we have all been involved in protests outside Leinster House and in many other areas. We absolutely support and defend those rights.
“Therefore, when we bring in legislation that creates exemptions to those rights, such as this Bill, we do so in a very careful way. I believe this Bill has got the balance right.”
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Thats funny, I dont remember anyone electing the current people in the dail on a manifesto deciding what freedom we are entitled to. I thought you elect people to run the country I dont remember in 2020 them saying that they were going to bully us around the place and take away our freedoms. Its almost as if they were lying to get into power so they could carry out the policies and business of others who are paying them outside of their normal earnings.
It is ironic that 100 years after our independence we are more constricted than ever before by the EU or the WHO or the IMF or indeed our own government who think they know better how to lead our lives for us than we do ourselves.
I will be frank about things Jack. I have watched your comments towards others and I will let you know this. When you actually come up with something remotely intelligent, ideally between a range of 90-100 iq range, I will respond in kind. Thank you for taking the time to respond and happy christmas.
Also nobody can reply to user with initials jz, always goes straight to awaiting moderation…lol. Probably a good thing.
Probably an AI bot.
He is definitely one of the political parties trolls.
Do you mean James, that someone actually employed the gobshite ?
hahahahahahaha…. No, I think he is hoping to get on the globalist payroll so he is doing internship atm. You need to be a good liar to get on the payroll, not a bad one.
Look here, this is more up your street. This should keep you entertained for a while. https://modernity.news/2023/12/15/creepy-jill-biden-christmas-dance-video-was-made-by-far-left-activist-group/
It is you who do not have the wit to argue a credible argument.
Who cares what you think. You will invariably be wrong.
You are being very charitable.
Except he did not refer to any of those subjects. As usual you are just fabricating accusations.
What do you care about his Christianity. Stay out of the lives of others. Is that so hard.
So you approve of the killing of the unborn and you don’t heed God’s warning that anyone who would harm children would be better off if he had a millstone tied around his neck and drowned in the depths of the ocean?
Nothing compared to the trouncing I gave you. And by your own admission you are not Christian so are not qualified to arbitrate on that point.
Its all ironic but Im not one for believing in coincidences and its my conclusion that we have never had independence at all. The reality is that we have been under constant control even after the formation of the state. The only thing they know is how to keep control but even that is slipping through their grasp as the nation wakes up to their antics which is why this hate speech bill is so important to them
JS is out of the loop but the answer to his question whether we asked politicians what their position was on exclusion zones would be that they are all opposed to abortion and in favour of free speech. Just as when we signed up to Gript we did not anticipate we would have such a troll accompanying our ever word.
He is an absolute disgrace in fairness. Who could justify what these parties are doing to the people of this country. People are literally dying because of their policies and he has the audacity to come on to a publication and harass people like that. That behavior is sociopath. An individual like that has no empathy, its inhuman.
I sincerely doubt that. I dont really think you are capable.
This stuff is right up your street too. These articles will fill you with joy.
https://modernity.news/2023/12/15/microsoft-ai-says-stop-hurting-white-people-is-an-example-of-hate-speech/
https://modernity.news/2023/12/15/report-muslim-droogs-attack-santa-declare-this-is-our-country/
You think the solution is to tell those women that you have helped them by killing their children? That would be a great excuse for war mongers that kill civilian populations.
He has no discretion. he has yet to display an argument based on natural law.
Correction. You have no discretion. You have to display an argument based on Blather.
Yes like the invading armies have empathy for the children that will die as a result of collateral damage.
For parties whose founders include Irish patriots that willingly laid down their lives for the freedom of this country to escape the persecution of famine torture and repression, it is unconscionable that they would have placed a referendum before the Irish people which would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of unborn children. That the Irish electorate voted for such an amendment shows how cheaply they sold their sovereignty.
But you do not have empathy for the women who want to keep their children. As far as you are concerned the only option is abortion.
They have sold out the people of Ireland and have more allegiance to foreign organisations and immigrants than to the Irish people.
No. People who cannot fathom your cowardly idiotic ramblings.
Sad that abortion wasnt available to your parents.
It’s tail not tale. You cannot even spell. You are a dunce.
You are such a cowardly idiot that nobody could even be bothered to scrutinise your nonsensical rambling replies.
Yeah just like captain Smith lost control of the Titanic.
https://modernity.news/2023/12/15/microsoft-ai-says-stop-hurting-white-people-is-an-example-of-hate-speech/
You are of no relevance either.
You are nuttier than a fruit cake.
Ads usual when your pathetic argument fails you resort to abuse.
Voting to kill unborn children is hardly a triumph for democracy. Defending innocent life is a Christian attitude. Approving of the snuffing out of thirty thousand unborn Irish lives is horrible by comparison.
Yeah now we will be dictated to by hypocritical political parties.
Is standing outside a hospital praying in any way an interference with the rights of others ?. You don’t get to decide what freedom I have. So just stay out of the lives of others. Setting the Guards on people engaged in constitutionally protected activities is not liberalism.
It’s worth noting that the weather is quite mild for this time of year.
The children of those women were adopted not aborted.
If you would put your money where your mouth is and stop commenting on other people’s opinions perhaps you would come across as authentic on that point.
It seems to really bother you Jack what others say or do. Stay out of the lives of others. Is that so hard.
I wish you were out of the lives of people. By your own admission you have not a clue about God or Christianity.
You are completely ignorant about Christianity. The New testament informs us that true religion consists of coming to the aid of widows and orphans or in this case a single mother and her unborn child. The fact that you are completely indifferent to their situation shows you care nothing about them.
I have already explained in previous posts that I subscribe to charities such as Gianna Care and Cura that provide care for women with crisis pregnancies who want to bring their child to term. I invite you to do the same.
You have to come onto a site like Gript to find out what goes on outside these clinics right? In the same way pro life people go to these clinics to inform these women that they offer an alternative.
When did you last assist them for that matter. Too busy on here spreading your hatred to do anything positive like that. It’s a pity you don’t play as good a game as you talk.
Even if I listed what I did or not you wouldn’t believe it. You are just a contrarian doing and saying the opposite just for the sake of it.. In any case the real hypocrites are the ones who lambast the burial of infants in a sceptic tank in Tuam while the department of health issues leaflets instructing women who have had a medical abortion how to flush the tiny body of the child down the toilet. You have no problem with those people giving advice though or not staying away.
He wants everyone else to stay out of the lives of others while poking his nose into everyone else’s business.
There you go poking your nose in again.
Are you really so naïve that you expect honest answers from those liars?
The whole push for these zones reflects very poorly on our country.Not surprising really as we probably have the worst Health minister ever in Donnellly.I can’t imagine he’ll get elected next time.He’s lost Fianna Fail a lot of votes.
You respect women by killing their children. I guess the Israelis really respect the Palestinians.
Neither is it any of your business if others offer them alternatives to killing their children.
Bigots like you don’t want them there. They will ignore you.
Who gives a damn what dim bulbs such as you think. Those people have a constitutional right to assemble where they want.
Also the choice of those who wish to be outside those places to offer an alternative. None of your business either.
We won’t be told by a government that attempts to outstrip our constitutional rights. These parties celebrate the defiance of their political founders like Padraig Pearse and Michael Collins. They cannot credibly claim to have inherited their mantle while simultaneously prohibiting their method of campaigning.
Yes to think this was one time the party of the late Des Hannifin. They will never again receive a vote from his supporters
This government is ripping away our freedoms piece by piece. They are traitors and should be treated as such.
Why do people need to go to an abortion clinic for an abortion? Can they not just have one at home? Setting as the pills are on the taxpayer expense?
Can the women also not leave the child alone? Because half the time that child will grow up to be a woman so you’re advocating to kill women before they’re even born. Who’s the real misogynist?
That is why Americans want guns. The more guns the more choice. They share the same views as abortionists, Killings should be legal and rare and safe. Guns keep Americans safe. Abortion keeps American women safe.
You are the one talking nonsense. Both kill other human beings.
No you idiot. We are not talking about the group Simple minds.
Ludicrous answer by you but that is no more than to be expected.
This is the very same Minister for Health who told us during COVID that if we sneezed, to wipe our snot in our sleeve. You’d hear this advice several times a day, every day. He should not be a minister. This man, for whom the abortion count can never be high enough, listened to the special interest groups, who are campaigners for abortion, all of it abortion without anaesthetic for the foetus, that they call compassion. These lunatics claim that the foetus has no life, up to date of delivery and they even want the scope of abortion services broadened. Promiscuity and the promotion of it is their line of activity, which has given us this skyrocketing scale of sbortions. Believing in nothing themselves they hate religion and prayer, as it is a barrier to what they want to achieve. This is a scandalous law. The guards have said it is unnecessary. The ban is outrageous. It has no place in a democracy, only in what Donnelly thinks is a democracy.
Who are you to dictate where people pray you little despot?
It probably escaped your notice that caring for others presupposes that not killing their children is a better choice. The people praying are offering an alternative to women who may feel their only option is to kill their child. If you ever read the testimonies of women who had booked appointments for abortions but were persuaded outside the clinic by pro life people to keep their child and offered help to do so and are now the happy parents of young men and women you would see things from their viewpoint. You are not Christian and do not have any compassion for either the woman or her child. You are also the one wanting to be the supreme controller of where other people may stand or pray or speak..
Wrong as usual. There are many charities that supply help to women who want to continue with their pregnancy, Cura, and Gianna care being two to which I subscribe.
look up the dictionary and stop asking people what the definition of subscribe means.
You are the hypocrite because you claim to be concerned for these people but won’t even lift a finger to help them.
Subscribe in this case means sending a regular donation to a pro life charity that helps expectant women with crisis pregnancies and in turn update their contributors of the progress that has been made since the birth of the child and the sourcing of accommodation for the mother and her new-born.
They cannot pray at church because it is crowded out with rock stars singing and dancing at funeral services. That is why they have to take to the streets. It is because non Christians such as you are determined to dictate to Christians such as us what must take place in our churches.
You can’t even read can you. I wrote our churches not “your” churches as you wrongly attribute. And it sticks in your lying craw that people do want to help women to continue with their pregnancies.
You are lying because you claim that pro life people do not help women with crisis pregnancies. Any way you are a half wit on whom it is a waste of time to dialogue with.
The above exchanges surely prove that replying to this silly man, Shaz, just feeds his vanity and leads to nothing but insults and bigotry. Please ignore him and he will get tired of talking to himself.
I think you are right. He is on here just to abuse and insult. Ignoring his silly prattle is the best course.
This current government are not very enthusiastic about the rule of law, or democracy! Only power!
On this side of the water, very anxious about the possibility of being arrested for praying near where they arrange the killing of pre-birth babies, I repeatedly asked South Wales Police where the abortion facilities would be under the terms of the Act, and would they please mark the perimeters with clear white lines. They eventually respond by claiming that there are no such abortion facilities in their area. I am awaiting a response guaranteeing that no one therefore will be arrested for this in the South Wales Police patch. I rather suspect that Home Office dirty tricks department is using a ploy like this to have the ability to pick on certain individuals – such as Isobel and the chap in Bournemouth – quite at random and without rationale – a law that isn’t a law, but a weapon in the hands of those who want yet more babies killed – as if a quarter of all pregnancies on this side of the water is not enough. It is my intention to pray at what I believe is a baby-killing site just as I have done in the past.
Please beware of the fuzzy nature of this oppression being handed out by legislators. This is itself yet another violation of a basic human right, recognised by all the literature. But – hush – we’re not supposed to talk about that sort of thing nowadays. That sort of Human Rights talk went out as the public forgot about Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust. If the parliament of any administration decrees even unanimously that such a law should be enacted, it is still a Human Rights abuse. The conscientious person must resist this bad law if they can. Don’t fancy Cardiff Prison. It was bad enough spending 4 and a half hours in a police cell some years ago, for defending the unborn. Please note which side – the baby killers – the totalitarians come from. Me, poor lost soul, I still believe in Catholic Social Teaching and that silly old humane thing, genuine democracy.
Joseph Biddulph, Pontypridd